Brazil's Lula: 'no relationship' with Trump amid tariffs and diplomatic shifts

BRASILIA — Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said in an exclusive interview with the BBC that he has "no relationship" with U.S. President Donald Trump, a stark description of the state of affairs between the two leaders as Washington's recently imposed tariffs bite into Brazilian exports. The 50% tariffs, announced in July, targeted Brazilian goods amid concerns over the political fallout surrounding Jair Bolsonaro's legal challenges and the broader U.S.-Brazil trade dynamic. Lula characterized the tariffs as "eminently political" and argued they would raise prices for American consumers rather than address the underlying issues.

Lula told the BBC that he learned of the tariffs from Brazilian newspapers and criticized the way they were published. He said Trump "did not communicate in a civilised manner" and that the decision was announced "on his portal - on social media." When pressed about why he had not simply picked up the phone, Lula replied that "I never tried that call because he never wanted to have a conversation." He noted that Trump has previously said Lula could call him anytime, but added that members of the Trump Administration "do not want to talk" to Brazil. The Brazilian president emphasized that the two leaders have never spoken directly and stressed that the relationship is at an impasse rather than a bilateral dead end.

Despite the tension with Washington, Lula said his diplomacy extends broadly. He pointed to strengthened ties with former U.S. presidents and current leaders around the world, including the United Kingdom, the European Union, China, Ukraine and several regional partners. He argued that, unlike Trump, he has relationships with many nations, including Russia and Brazil’s ally in a broader sense with China, that he described as essential to Brazil’s foreign policy. He underscored that if he ran into Trump at the United Nations General Assembly, he would greet him as a fellow head of state, adding that Trump may be president of the United States, but "he's not emperor of the world!"

The BBC asked Lula about the state of Brazil’s relations with the United States in light of the tariff move and the two countries’ divergent views on economic policy. He said the dispute highlighted a broader problem: Trump’s approach, he said, has not been conducive to constructive dialogue with Brasília. "There is no relationship with Trump," Lula repeated, framing the remark as a reflection of the current state of play rather than a blanket judgment on U.S.-Brazil ties. The BBC sought comment from the White House, but as of publishing, there was no immediate response.

The interview also touched on the political turmoil that followed Brazil’s presidential election and the subsequent legal actions against Jair Bolsonaro. A Brazilian Supreme Court ruling last week found Bolsonaro guilty, by a 4-1 vote, of plotting a coup after losing the election and sentenced him to 27 years in prison. Lula argued that Bolsonaro and his co-conspirators had "hurt the country, attempted a coup, and plotted my death." He said Bolsonaro would have to defend himself in ongoing appeals, but asserted that for now, Bolsonaro is "guilty" on the charges acknowledged by the court. He criticized Trump for "inventing untruths" about Bolsonaro and accused the former U.S. president of questioning Brazilian democracy.

On the UN and global governance, Lula urged reform of the United Nations and criticized the current veto power held by five permanent members of the Security Council. He argued that this arrangement tilts international decision-making toward the winners of World War II, excluding the voices of billions who live outside those five nations. The Brazilian president contended that the UN lacks the strength to resolve conflicts and that unilateral decisions by the five permanent members have often exacerbated crises. He said Brazil should be heard in a more democratic, multipolar UN structure and cited the need for a body capable of addressing humanitarian crises and post-conflict reconstruction with greater legitimacy.

Lula also defended Brazil’s stance toward Russia and China, stressing a call for a more democratic international order even as he acknowledged Brazil’s ongoing energy needs. He noted that Brazil condemns Russia’s occupation of Ukraine and underscored that his government does not finance Russia, but buys oil because global markets require it like many other economies. He insisted that the Brazil–Russia relationship does not equate to support for Kyiv’s adversaries, and he argued that a functioning UN would have prevented the kinds of conflicts currently playing out, including the war in Ukraine and the Gaza crisis, which he labeled as a genocide rather than a traditional war.

The interview also touched on climate and energy policy. Ahead of November’s COP30 climate summit in Belém, Lula faced domestic questions over exploratory drilling near the mouth of the Amazon River. State-controlled Petrobras and other companies have secured blocks for offshore exploration, while his environment minister, Marina Silva, has expressed strong opposition due to environmental risk. Lula said Brazil remains firmly within the law governing exploration and is prepared to address any oil spills with responsibility and accountability. He voiced support for a transition away from fossil fuels but acknowledged that a global transition requires collaboration and time; he asked for evidence that any major economy is ready to forgo fossil fuels entirely.

On the UN’s ability to resolve global conflicts, Lula suggested that a more representative and democratic system would better reflect the interests of Brazil and other large and diverse states. He argued that five veto-wielding permanent members often act unilaterally, limiting the UN’s capacity to respond to crises and to prevent escalations. He said a reformed UN could better coordinate responses to violence, climate-related disasters and humanitarian emergencies, and that Brazil would continue to advocate for reforms that reflect the multipolar character of the modern world.

Domestically, Lula acknowledged the political challenges ahead as he weighs a potential run for re-election in 2026. At 79, his decision will depend on his health, his party’s trajectory and the political opportunity ahead of him. He said his legacy would include continuing efforts to reduce hunger, lower unemployment and raise incomes for Brazil’s working class, even as he pursues a foreign policy aimed at diversifying relationships and strengthening Brazil’s role on the world stage. He concluded with a pledge to maintain Brazil’s stance on climate and to manage the Amazon region with care, while pursuing a pragmatic energy strategy that reflects Brazil’s development needs and international responsibilities.